LIGHTWEIGHT FORUMS >> Lite Gear Talk

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jonnycat
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Reged: 04/21/05
Posts: 349
Loc: PNW
Cat stove in the wind?
      #99533 - 04/01/06 03:35 AM

I built a nice little SuperCat stove (thanks Jim Wood), and was able to get a pint of water from 13C to a nice 100C boil with 20mL (0.7 fl. oz.) of denatured alcohol. Very nice.

I then built a little windscreen (came up to 1/2 the height of the pan), retested it, and got the same very nice results.

But then I added a small breeze from a very small and slow moving fan, and even with the windscreen my water only got to 80C.

So, I'm wondering if this is par for the course with the SuperCat, or with alky stoves in general? Are there any special tricks or techniques I should try when using the stove in windy conditions?


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batoncolle
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Reged: 01/22/03
Posts: 315
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: jonnycat]
      #99542 - 04/01/06 08:33 AM

How far (circumference wise) is your windscreen from the pot when it's in place? 1/2" is about ideal. And how big are your windscreen holes? Paper hole punch is normally ideal.

You will notice a difference when it's windy, but I've still been able to get a boil on 2 cups. If it's really windy, I sometimes add rocks around the outside of the windscreen to help a little.


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Spock
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Reged: 01/10/06
Posts: 419
Loc: Central Texas
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: batoncolle]
      #99551 - 04/01/06 11:30 AM

Yeah, rocks... also to keep the windscreen fro blowing away.

And you don't really have to punch a lot of holes... just cut some notches on the bottom of the windscreen. That's structurally a little better, makes rolling it up easier and all you really need.


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jasonklass
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Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 320
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: jonnycat]
      #99570 - 04/01/06 12:55 PM

I don't punch holes in my windscreens anymore. I use trenches like this: http://www.freewebs.com/jasonklass/ventingoptions.htm

This allows me to control the venting based on the conditions.

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Is it 2008 yet?


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jonnycat
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Reged: 04/21/05
Posts: 349
Loc: PNW
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: batoncolle]
      #99581 - 04/01/06 03:11 PM

Thanks Baton (and all). The one I made last night came pretty close to the pot, maybe 1/4" or so. I used roofing flashing, and didn't realy do a very good job with the holes (my bits somehow wandered off and I could only find a 5/16" bit). I'll pick up an oven liner today with a paper punch and do another experiment.

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Jim_Wood
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Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 112
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: jonnycat]
      #99589 - 04/01/06 06:18 PM

jonnycat -

A few suggestions for your windscreen based upon my own experiences with stoves in general and the Super Cat in particular:

1. You want, of course, to minimize air turbulence inside the screen, so as others have noted, it's best for the screen to be no more than ¼" to ½" away from your pot. Keeping the screen tight also helps the heat that's reflected from its surface to transfer most efficiently back to the pot. The tradeoff here is that you'll need to use a screen material that's thick enough to withstand the heat of the stove when placed this close (not all materials qualify and some will melt). Most 6" wide aluminum flashing works well, though the polymer that's coated onto both sides needs to be either burned off or removed with sand paper and/or steel wool.

2. Naturally, the taller the windscreen, the more effective it will be. Ideally, a windscreen should rise to near the top edge of the pot even if the additonal height adds an ounce or so to the screen weight.

3. As Jason notes, you don't necessarily need to punch ventilation holes if you use a trench. If you use the screen on a non-trenchable surface (like a picnic table or rock) then alternatively, you can lift the bottom edge of the screen slightly with pebbles or small pieces of wood. It's usually best to lift just the rear side of the screen and face the front (unlifted) side into the wind.

4. If you do make holes, they don't need to completely encircle the screen. Instead, you can usually get by with punching them only about halfway around, facing the unpunched side into the wind. Also, ventilation holes should be at least about ¼" in diameter. Smaller holes, even if there are lots of them, will often restrict air flow and starve the stove for oxygen.

5. Keep the screen cutout for your pot's handles (if it has them) as small as possible. If you use multiple pots of different sizes, then you may need to build a custom screen for each.

6. To further minimize air turbulence inside the screen, I use a stand with the Super Cat that elevates the bottom of the stove so it's that it's about 1½" above ground level and out of the direct line of fire from wind that may enter the ventilation holes. Pictures of this new stand, which weighs about ½ oz and is made from one 3 oz and one 5.5 oz (or 6 oz) pet food can, are shown below. There are, by the way, lots of other advantages to using a stand of this design. A full description is forthcoming in an update to the original Super Cat article.

Even with the best screen construction, high winds can still disrupt cooking with the Super Cat or any other stove. In REALLY windy environments, an aluminum windscreen used in conjunction with a fabric windscreen (like the KiteScreen when rigged with a top panel), can virtually eliminate turbulence.

Jim Wood.

Photo of stand alone shows docking socket on top:


Photo of stand with Super Cat plugged into docking socket:


--------------------
Visit jwbasecamp.com. An Internet stop for wilderness travelers.


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jonnycat
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Reged: 04/21/05
Posts: 349
Loc: PNW
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: Jim_Wood]
      #99613 - 04/02/06 05:12 AM

Awesome, thank you so much for that, Jim. I made a taller windscreen (came up to the top of the pot), and only put 10 holes in one side; it ended up doing a _lot_better than my shorty with the too many holes. I might even try one like Jason's without any holes and just make a few trenches.

The kite screen is a fantastic idea also, and since I've got fabric right now I'm going to bring one along. Also I like the docking stand; keeping the stove away from the vent holes in the windscreen should be effective, as well as making it more stable to boot.

I was worried about this stove working in the wind, but I'm a lot more confident now that I've got tricks for blocking wind.

Thanks a ton.


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jasonklass
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Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 320
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: Jim_Wood]
      #99632 - 04/02/06 11:56 AM

That's great advice Jim. BTW I like the new Supercat stand. What does it weigh?

--------------------
http://www.freewebs.com/jasonklass/


Is it 2008 yet?


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Jim_Wood
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Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 112
Re: Cat stove in the wind? [Re: jasonklass]
      #99635 - 04/02/06 01:21 PM

Jason -

This new stand weighs about ½ oz. The docking socket is constructed as described in this article and is attached to the base using three aluminum pop rivets. I've also made versions of the socket that are attached using small brass screws from Home Depot.

Not to hijack this thread, but this is probably a good opportunity to note the other advantages of this new design:

1. The stand creates a wider base with fewer ground contact points, so the stove is a lot more stable with this stand than when it's used alone.

2. On highly vegetated or uneven ground, the stove can be further stabilized by staking it to the ground. I often insert a pair of slim tent stakes (I use titanium micro hook stakes at ~0.2 oz each) through the two holes in the base of the stand, then push them into the ground. This arrangement virtually eliminates any possibility of the stove tipping or blowing over. Without the stand, it's difficult to find a way to secure the stove using stakes. Hanging the hook ends over the top edge of the stove, for example, doesn't work since the combustion chamber is no longer sealed and the stove won't pressurize properly.

3. The docking socket feature allows different stoves to be used with the same stand since there's no permanent connection required between the stove and stand. The socket is tight enough, however, to hold the stove very securely. Removal of the stove from the stand is usually best done with a twisting motion.

4. The stand protects the bottom of the stove from damage. If the stove alone, for example, is placed on a gravel surface, the weight of a pot filled with water can sometimes push the bottom's soft aluminum into the sharp edges of stones, causing dents and possibly even punctures. The stand eliminates this hazard.

5. The airspace trapped under the stand base serves to insulate the stove from cold ground. Doing so solves pretty much eliminates the conductive heat losses to the ground that often ruin the performance of other alcohol stoves when used in cold weather. For use at really low temps, it's also possible to fill the base with fiberglass insulation for even better performance.

6. This same airspace also protects the surface under the Super Cat from the heat that's produced by the stove. I can now use the stove directly on my workbench without having to worry about cooking the surface. Also great for protecting the vegetation under the stove when used on the trail.

7. The base allows the effective use of the "snuffer cup" that's described in the original Super Cat article. The snuffer cup seals very well against the uniform surface of the base, and permits the stove to be easily and reliably extinguished at will. Great for saving fuel and also a significant safety feature. I now use a snuffer cup with a small wooden knob on top for easy handling. Well worth the extra ½ oz of weight, IMO.

8. And finally, the top of the stand base can serve as a priming pan for the stove. Adding a few drops of alcohol primer to the base just outside the wall of the stove helps the stove come up to operating temperature faster and also makes it easier to light the stove (especially in cold weather). Now, rather than having to reach over top edge of the stove with your match or lighter to ignite the alcohol fuel, it's possible to simply light the primer outside the stove (the flame quickly spreads inside). The design of the base can's bottom is also perfect since the outer ridge keeps the priming fuel from spilling over the edges.

Jim.

Note: Photos below repeated from earlier post for convenience.

Photo of stand alone shows docking socket on top:


Photo of stand with Super Cat plugged into docking socket:




--------------------
Visit jwbasecamp.com. An Internet stop for wilderness travelers.


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